My experience in Sandy Springs (a suburb of Atlanta) recently:
This is me getting stopped by Sandy Springs PD for speeding. The second thing the officer asked me, after asking for my license, was if I had any firearms. I responded that I was choosing to exercise my right to remain silent on that question. That answer prompted the officer to have me get out of the car for a pat down. The officer told me that the reason for his question (about firearms) was because I had a “right to carry” sticker on my car. Yes, he actually said that. It’s a sticker for Georgia Carry.org (GCO) Although the audio isn’t 100% clear for that part, you can clearly hear him reference the sticker when talking to me and to another officer. Additionally, it appeared as if “back up” had been called, because there were 3 police right cars behind me and two more across the street. In the end, I got a ticket for speeding and for not having a working light bulb over my license plate.
Posted and how in the world do they allow a fat pig to be an officer? Just amazing.
Rock on Daniel from Randy’s Right
Hey Dan, I passed this page and video on to Georgia Carry, especially since they “targeted” the GCO sticker and made the statement saying GCO had a bunch of weird people in it… we’ll see if GCO can send a response to the Dept.
But, a good reason for ALL patriots to make sure their vehicles are in good shape and to follow the laws until we can get a bunch of ’em thrown out or modified, stay tight and don’t give ’em a reason to pull you.
A pat down for firearms.
Then some window-shopping of the car-presumably for firearms. Hard to hear, but I don’t think he asked about drugs.
Hope GCO gets all over this.
What exactly did the officer do wrong? The bumper sticker was a red flag jumping up and down in front of him shouting “I HAVE A GUN, I HAVE A GUN”. The man was just worried about being shot for god’s sake!
Be fair about it. What if you were in his place/ He has no idea who he just stopped, you could be a serial killer for all he knows! He wasn’t busting your balls because you were probably carrying, he just wanted to be sure he wasn’t going to be killed.
I got stopped not long ago here in Tennessee for speeding. Here, our permit number is the same as our DL number, so when they call in your DL, they automatically know you have a permit. The officer was very polite and asked me if I had any weapons in the car, I answered, “yes sir”.
He asked if it were in the glove box, I said “no sir, it’s on my hip”, he said “on your hip”? I said “yes sir”.
That was that, he went back to his car and gave me my ticket which was greatly reduced so I wouldn’t have to go to court, just pay by mail.
Do you think he would have done that if I gave him a hard time?
You guys have to be fair and stop treating ALL Police Officers like they’re the enemy, they are not!
Well, I guess in response to your question, “what did the officer do wrong?”, I’ll say these this:
1- he had me get out of the car for a pat down all because I exercised my right to remain silent by not answering his question about guns, a question which was prompted entirely by a bumper sticker.
The take away is that if you have a sticker, that means to expect special questions based off of it, and, if you refuse to answer questions based on your stickers, expect a pat down because of your refusal. Sticker = questions, refusal to answer = pat down. Something about that doesn’t seem right.
Your mistake is that you’re applying a non-offender standard to your situation as an offender. The officer has a right to issue you the citation without being put in unreasonable fear of harm. He suspected that you were armed, and that suspicion wasn’t based on some immutable characteristic like your race but on your own statement (in the form of the sticker). If you think he was wrong to suspect that then the law is going to expect you to show that the officer misbehaved in that no reasonable person would think a person with a GeorgiaCarry sticker is likely to be armed. Is it profiling? Sure, but not all profiling is impermissible.
Your right to silence doesn’t equate to a right to be left alone when you’ve been stopped on legitimate grounds. The cop actually completely respected your First Amendment rights: you were not compelled to speak. He also completely respected your Fourth Amendment rights: you were not searched unreasonably (SCOTUS having said that a patdown for weapons doesn’t require probable cause). You weren’t patted down because you wouldn’t say how fast you thought you were going or because you wouldn’t confess to speeding; it was because you refused to answer the officer’s reasonable question relating to his ability to perform his duty in safety.
What happened is that you got on the wrong side of the law and kept digging. Your rights were not violated and, frankly, you’re presenting a bad face for the gun rights movement.
IAALBIANYL. TINLA.
“A bad face for the gun rights movement??”
What, because I remained silent like everyone who knows anything advises one do?
Because I was speeding? Really? Give me a break.
Why?
Seriously, having a gun != wants to shoot a cop. That’s demented thinking in the first place. If a cop thinks that everyone who has a gun wants to shoot him, then he’s got bigger problems than just this stop (and I suspect this stop will be a big problem for him.)
I’ve got a mouth, too. That doesn’t mean that because I open it I want to fellate a cop.
Funny that you believe in the 2nd Amendment, and forget about the 1st and the 4th. Ignorant, or stupid, I can’t tell, but it worries me that you have a carry permit.
Worries you that I have a carry permit? Why?
I wonder if the officer works for the SEIU in his ‘spare’ time. Geez! Talk about PROFILING for ‘non islamist domestic terrorists!
Very simple solution. Don’t speed.
When I drive to Michigan from South Eastern Virginia and back I always have 3 or 4 handguns and a couple of long guns and a shotgun plus enough ammo for an extended stay. I don’t invite attention even though I am an NRA License plate and am fully CCW licensed in 2 states and each state on the way allows for that.
So don’t speed as it costs you money and there are definately police who do not like private cits to cary.
Don’t speed? Impossible in Atlanta if you value your life.
[…] says GeorgiaCarry.org bumper sticker on car is probable cause for search. And also cause for three officers to show as […]
I haven’t been harassed in my vehicle yet, but I wonder how they’ll react to my “Trijicon Night Sights” sticker on the back window?
I have been very much against sticking “crap” on my vehicles because it makes you look like a lefty at first glance, but I think I’ll be putting on the stickers that I’ve been accumulating (GOA, OK, III, etc). The only reason the trijicon sticker made it on was that it’s very low profile, darn near invisible on the tinted window. But that’s ok, it will have some company soon.
Our police issue 2X the tickets of any city our size in Texas (100K), so ticketing is not based on speeding, its based on city budgeting.
If ticketed:
1. Ask for jury trail and exhibit enthusiasm for being able to participate in jury selection!
2. File for discovery: The tapes, the video, the ticket, the last 100 tickets written by the officer, his credentials, training, testing, qualifications, employment record PLUS those of all officers responding. You’ll need the records of the maintainence logs of the speed guns, plus the manufacturers instructions and training, et. Plus you need ten days possession to examine and test the equipment. They will have to give you most of it.
In about a month you will get a letter dismissing all charges. It’s not about public safety or speeding, it’s purely financial. If you hold up the system they will spit you out.
that’s great advice…I posted it on my hugely trafficed blog (I get maybe 50 hits a day)
http://thevailspot.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-to-beat-speeding-ticket.html
Thanks.
Rich
This is a Terry stop, to do a frisk for weapons. Reasonable suspicion, not probable cause, is required. “Something doesn’t seem right” is pretty much the standard for this.
This is not a search under current fourth amendment precedent.
A Terry stop (and associated frisk) is ABSOLUTELY a seizure and search within the meaning of the 4th Amendment. But it’s a “reasonable” search according to Terry v. Ohio, even without a warrant or consent, which is why it’s permissible.
The officer did nothing illegal here. The initial stop was legit, and you made a statement (via your bumper sticker) indicating that you likely had a firearm, which allows him to draw a reasonable inferrence that you were armed. Your rights were not violated.
There is a lot of very poor and incorrect legal analysis in these comments, on both sides of the argument. This does not help the cause of liberty, or of the Second Amendment.
When I was in law school, several of my liberal friends came around to the value of the Second Amendment through education, debates, and even organized gun shoots organizations I was part of helped put together. Having seen what works and what doesn’t to pursuade the anti-gun folks, I am agreement with the previous commenter who noted this is NOT a post I would like to see be made the face of the gun rights movement.
First of all The Juice im sure you are a troll and you need to quit reading too many books to guide you and use some common sense, we don’t like getting stopped for victimless crimes (revenue generation) you dont have to read more law books to know that your rights are being violated. I got stopped in NC for having ran out of gas on my motorcycle and had to show id and when i started schooling him on the constitution then videoing the coward cop he left the scene like a bitch.
Victimless crimes are just legislation Daniel hasnt done anything wrong by speeding a few miles over. If he was dangerous and wrecked and harmed someone then he would face 12 of his peers and be punished.
Cheers, Daniel
Dissent Is the Highest Form of Patriotism
What exactly did the officer do wrong? You’re kidding right? He violated a man’s 4th Amendment rights by searching him without probable cause.
If I have a sticker for Cutco knives on my car is that sufficient probable cause to assume I’m carrying knives & search me without consent?
Does a Boomershoot sticker mean I forfeit my 4th Amendment rights and an officer can call in a K-9 to search my car for explosives?
http://www.boomershoot.org/
By having that sticker there your giving him reason to fear for his life potentially. He acted like a gentleman, he spoke as a gentleman, if the young man had said “yes officer, I have a gun in my glove compartment”, then the cop would have thought you were on the up and up.
By acting strange, you draw attention to yourself.
Do you disagree that the officer has a right to keep himself from possibly being killed? That’s all he wanted, to make sure he was safe.
Your so quick to say he’s stepping on your 4th…what about his right to make sure he gets through the night alive?
A Terry frisk isn’t a “search” protected by the Fourth Amendment. If the LEO feels what is probably a weapon, he can remove it. That’s not a clear standard, but things like a wallet or a bag of crack rocks isn’t going to count (and, if necessary, will be suppressed as evidence).
As to the K-9 search…they can do that anyway, so long as it’s done within the stop because it’s in “plain view” (yes, smell counts). The LEO can peer into your windows, too. He can’t detain you for much longer than it takes to go through the procedures needed to issue you the ticket, but as a general rule he probably has up to about 20 minutes even on a speeding stop. If another unit comes by with a K-9, he can run the dog around your vehicle and that’s fine under the law.
All this, of course, is under the U.S. Constitution. Your state may have enacted laws restricting the police further.
IAALBIANYL. TINLA.
If you think the founding fathers wrote the Constitution with the intention of creating a ruling class of regular militiamen using dogs to make warrantless arrests, then you know nothing about this nation’s history, or our republic and acting on those false conceptions would be treasonous based on the definition of treason in the Constitution.
I would have had to ask him if he had any donuts in his car…and if he wanted to know why I asked.
PS. Mike W.
As to your question about having a bumper sticker about Cutco knives on your car.
That in itself does not warrant a search, but if he asks you if you have any knives on you, and you plead the 5th, don’t you think that strange behavior could give him cause for alarm? Be reasonable.
Exercising your rights is strange? Try watching this, and see if you can grasp why people might want to not talk to the police.
Obviously it’s been a while but, years back when we had first moved to Ringgold, Georgia, I obtained my carry permit.
Not long after that I’m buzzing along the 2A just a little faster than I should have, trying to get a daughter to work on time.
The officer was a youngster and asked to see my driver’s license and registration.
He calls in the license and comes back to the van and asked the same question of firearms in the car.
My answer was “yes, I’m carrying concealed, right inside hip holster.”
“Is it loaded?”
“Officer, what good is an unloaded gun?”
Hands me my license and and says “Have a great day!”
Guess things change with time and perception.
Laughingdog,
I’ve seen that tape before and was able to “grasp” what he was saying, but, he was talking about being interrogated for a crime, not being stopped for speeding.
The fact is, if a cop sees a bumper sticker on your car about guns, he has every right to ask you if you are armed, since what your carrying could potentially take his life.
We sometimes get so wrapped up in our own rights, that we forget that he has rights too, like, staying alive.
Do you “grasp” my meaning?
Oh, the cops, like anyone else, have a right to ask anything. What he did wrong was to order me out of the car, special treatment for a traffic stop, based on 1) my refusal to answer the gun question and 2) a sticker.
” he has rights too…”
No, he doesn’t. Not in his capacity as a policeman. Police have powers, citizens have rights.
The governing question is, what was the officer going to do with his information?
Taking a mainstream political position is not a crime. Neither is refusing to answer a policeman’s questions about matters that are none of his business.
If he had found a weapon in the course of an illegal search, the evidence could not be used in a prosecution.
So what was the point of anything the officer did beyond writing the ticket and saying “Have a nice day?”
And the argument that by not ceding your own rights, you provoke an officer into exceeding his authority is specious at best.
Gentlemen;
With respect, I believe that we should not have NRA stickers or any other stickers promoting firearms on our cars. The simple reason is that it is an advertisement to have your car broken into by thieves.
If a secondary result of having these stickers on your car is to arouse suspicion by law enforcement, well IMHO perhaps another reason not to have stickers.
Maybe some Dunkin Donuts stickers or even MO bettah, some Krispy Kreme stickers, You’re not gonna get robbed or busted for them.
Roger
[…] In Almond’s words: This is me getting stopped by Sandy Springs PD for speeding. The second thing the officer asked me, after asking for my license, was if I had any firearms. I responded that I was choosing to exercise my right to remain silent on that question. That answer prompted the officer to have me get out of the car for a pat down. The officer told me that the reason for his question (about firearms) was because I had a “right to carry” sticker on my car. Yes, he actually said that. It’s a sticker for Georgia Carry.org (GCO) Although the audio isn’t 100% clear for that part, you can clearly hear him reference the sticker when talking to me and to another officer. Additionally, it appeared as if “back up” had been called, because there were 3 police right cars behind me and two more across the street. In the end, I got a ticket for speeding and for not having a working light bulb over my license plate. […]
[…] In Almond’s words: This is me getting stopped by Sandy Springs PD for speeding. The second thing the officer asked me, after asking for my license, was if I had any firearms. I responded that I was choosing to exercise my right to remain silent on that question. That answer prompted the officer to have me get out of the car for a pat down. The officer told me that the reason for his question (about firearms) was because I had a “right to carry” sticker on my car. Yes, he actually said that. It’s a sticker for Georgia Carry.org (GCO) Although the audio isn’t 100% clear for that part, you can clearly hear him reference the sticker when talking to me and to another officer. Additionally, it appeared as if “back up” had been called, because there were 3 police right cars behind me and two more across the street. In the end, I got a ticket for speeding and for not having a working light bulb over my license plate. […]
That’s right! He brought it all on himself!
By using and expressing his free speech, he enabled an officer to violate his constitutional rights. If he hadn’t had the sticker, he would not have been asked the question. The sticker therefore equals probable cause? I don’t think you want to argue that one in court.
Further, do citizens have to answer all questions put to them by ANYONE in authority? Without consequences of say, a search? If he had said “no” to the question as ALL criminals would, would he have been searched anyway?
As a former officer, I can tell you that if this matter is pressed, the involved personnel ARE in DEEP s*it. That is if the Constitution and bill of rights I was taught, is still the same. Very obviously, the officers involved don’t have the same training or understanding of Constitutional law and citizen rights I was taught.
homobangbangamus: I live in Florida and at the time didn’t have my NRA sticker but when I was stopped for speeding the FIRST question the cop asked was if I was armed. It was done pleasantly and he obviously expected the negative that I gave him, but none-the-less he did ask. FYI I was, at the time, a 58 YO woman.
Was it illegal to be armed where you were stopped? No and you wouldn’t have been incriminating yourself. So invoking your right to remain silent was the Wrong Thing To Do.
Great legal analysis there, Bill. I guess remaining silent is only for guilty people.
Daniel these guys are all agents dont bother getting angry at their nazi statements and i look forward to seeing you at the next restore the constitution rally
Without quoting everyone, let me make a few clarifications.
A Terry Frisk most certainly constitutes a “search” under the Fourth Amendment. PERIOD. End of story. The young man is this video had his person searched. One can make an argument that the bumper sticker would suffice as RAS to protect this search. This, however, is a sad testament to the lowly position our Fourth Amendment protections hold with our judiciary. One single articulable fact would probably support this search. It’s a shame. Not only because Terry is a horrible decision that should be overturned, but also because one single fact might be enough.
The government doesn’t have “rights”! The government only has privileges, and specifically only those granted to it by the People. When you’re dealing with a cop, you’re dealing with the government. It galls me to see people act as though they’re simply dealing with an individual man or woman during a police/citizen confrontation. And all seizure-level encounters with the police are just that–confrontations. Our liberty being confronted with the government’s power to restrict liberty. We aren’t dealing with individuals in these instance. We’re dealing with *the government.*
Several people have made the shopworn “officer safety” argument. Do you all not realize how much of our liberty has been lost to this particular form of wolf-crying? Too many judges have allowed that the police may assume that anyone stopped for a traffic offense is probably intending to kill the officers present. This is preposterous. Without a single SPECIFIC articulable reason to fear for their safety, they may make dramatic insults to our rights in our private property, simply because of an alleged minor traffic infraction. “Traffic stops are inherently dangerous.” This is not any specific fact of the actual stop at hand.
FWIW, the cop in this video did fairly well. His search was wrong, but he wasn’t too big a jerk. He didn’t get his feelings hurt when the citizen attempted to assert his rights. His one mistake was one the courts allow him to make, too.
So if you have a “Choose Life” sticker on your car, do they presume you are pregnant?
If you have a “Support our Troops” stickers, do they presume your car is an armored personnel carrier?
Knuckleheads…
This was a Terry Stop, not a Probable Cause Search.
The Officer pulled you over for a legit reason (you were speeding).
The officer noticed you had a pro concealed carry sticker on you car. So he asks you if you have a weapon. Since he does not know anything about you and he is alone on the side of the road until backup arrives; this is reasonable information that he is asking for.
You refuse to answer, as is your right. So he frisks you for his own safety, as is his right.
The Officer then goes on and about his regular duty.
This sounds like the Officer acted in a professinal and reasonable manner.
If you did have a legal concealed weapon, it is a matter of respect and safety to immediatly let a police officer know you have a firearm so there are no misunderstandings.
Not informing a police officer that you are carrying is rude and dangerous.
Imagine how many cops they’d have sent if you had as many stickers as a typical Obama voter!
Someone who intends to shoot a cop during a traffic stop is probably not going to have a bumper sticker advertising that he or she has a firearm. The really dangerous criminals know that a pro-Second Amendment bumper sticker will put police on their guard and will avoid having anything on their vehicles that might warn the police. Therefore, the most dangerous situation is one in which there is NOTHING on the car to suggest that might be a weapon inside. A complete lack of evidence of a threat is the best evidence that there is a tremendous threat. An officer who sees nothing to indicate the driver is dangerous should call backup, prone the driver out at gunpoint, depoly SWAT, you name it. The only way to be safe is to treat everyone as a mortal threat.
I’m sure Norberg and Wolfwood will approve.
Regarding Robert who claims filing for discovery and the like in a class C misdemeanor trial …
That doesn’t work in my town of 44K in North Texas. Not one bit. Not only that, but pontificating in court will get you thrown in the slammer if it doesn’t pertain to the actual offense and is just in reality an attempt to spread your “truth”.
Saw in happen in real life 3 seperate times.
When you have Texas Republic folks, they espouse the same stuff plus extra stuff, shooting down officers, then, well, what exactly do you expect?
Ordering someone out of the car is not illegal by any stretch of the law or imagination. Case law supports it. However, there are conflicting theories as to what is best, keeping someone in the car or having them outside. At one time, it was accepted practice that all business done in a traffic stop was outside of the car. Today, that is not so. Moreover, you will be ordered to get into your car if you get out before being approached. That does not mean being ordered out of your car is illegal or wrong. Would I have done the same thing as this officer? No, but that does not mean he did something wrong or illegal.
Special treatment based on a political bumper sticker……..something seems wrong with that.
Sorry, but you’re making a mountain out of a molehill.
I was stopped for speeding up here in rural New York State and was asked if I had any firearms. I had an NRA sticker on my truck, so I suppose that could have been the reason.
On the other hand this is the country. Guns under the seat of a pickup aren’t rare and I didn’t think the question was the least bit out of line. The Sheriff had to worry about his own safety.
There are enough issues to get upset about without worrying over stuff like this.
I’m not really making much of a mountain out of it, just a blog post with a video. A mountain it is not.
Sounds like good police work to me.
If you didn’t want attention from the sticker then why did you put it on your car for everyone to see?
Oh, and by the way… you’re an idiot. This cop seems like a real nice guy. You probably wouldn’t have gotten a ticket if you weren’t such a dumbass.
It’s guys like you that are gonna screw up the good message that GA right to carry is trying to pass on.
Cannon you are as stupid democrat there are forums somewhere for people like you ignorant comments are welcome there not here this is a patriotic website for people who understand their rights and obcviously you dont
Seems like the badge lickers are out in full force… you jerky’s may be willing to surrender your rights, I am not.
Georgia is a state that does not require you notify law Enforcement when carrying weapons, as a law abiding citizen it is none of a LEO’s business whether I am carrying or not.
A sticker on a vehicle is not a reason to violate a citizens rights, the officer should have written the tickets for the violations and moved along without comment.
If an officer wants to search me just because of my GOA, NRA, GCO and Oath Keepers decals… I will be filing a report or seeing them in a court room, any patriot that doesn’t stand up for their rights deserves the treatment they get.
Youre damn right on Don and i will for sure rather die on my feet and not beg on my knees. The fact we are being ticketed for revenue generation is a violation of our rights. And if these thugs respect their freedoms at all it is because of armed citizens.
Here is a good patriot music internet radio station all patriot anti big government music check it out.
http://polygraphradio.com/
The reason I carry a weapon is for my safety and the safety of my loved ones. For me to try to provoke an officer who has stopped me for a legitimate cause when we are both armed is counter productive. I will continue to focus on being prepared when confronted with a life or death situation and let others focus on trying to get unwarranted reactions from law enforcement. I guess it all comes down to what you feel is important
So to exercise the right to remain silent is to provoke, then?
Good thing you didn’t have “Live Free or Die” on your car. He would have taken that literally, I’d bet.